NPoCP: E39 540i

"ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability" (italianjobr53)
10/16/2018 at 16:45 • Filed to: Unnecessary Car Shopping

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These things are fairly cheap for a 300bhp 4.4L V8 stick shift BMW...

Will the maintenance be expensive or BMW expensive?

DISCUSSION (57)

jasmits > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/16/2018 at 17:01

A good friend of mine has one, he really likes it and no horror stories. NP.

Also BMW maintenance really is not nearly as bad as people think(although probably take that with a grain of salt coming from a guy who says the same thing about his Land Rover).

atfsgeoff > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/16/2018 at 17:02

Are you doing the work yourself? Or paying to have a shop do it?

WiscoProud > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/16/2018 at 17:07

I’ve had that debate myself. I’d prefer a E39 m5, but I could hoon one of these for a hell of a lot cheaper.

CompactLuxuryFan > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/16/2018 at 17:10

Mm that last one is just delightful. NP

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/16/2018 at 17:19

You’ll pay it in maintenance.

boredalways > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/16/2018 at 17:26

My fav is the story on the salvage titled car:

“Before that, the car had been owned by a guy in Nevada. Drove up to Chicago during the winter and he wasn’t used to driving in snow. The guy got himself into an accident which broke both front and back bumpers and dented the front of the hood.

Mechanic replaced both bumpers and fixed the hood.”

How much of a dumbass must you be to drive from NV and not know how to drive in the winter, and drive that during a Chicago winter? Probably had summer tires on it, too!

Also, I'm impressed that Chicagoland has this many rare, 6MT 540i available.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/16/2018 at 17:44

BMW expensive, if you’re paying someone else to work on it. If you know your way around turning wrenches, are willing to cough up the special tools when needed, and can expl icitly follow directions from the factory service manual (around 1500 pages, can be downloaded these days), then they’re not as expensive as you might think. The other part of that is having a backup plan to drive while procuring parts. If you can scour around and wait for shipping, many parts are not as expensive as you might expect (when I had my E39, ebay of all places was a fantastic source of OEM BMW parts for very reasonable money). If you have to have parts right now when something breaks, you’ll bend over and pay accordingly.

For that 4.4 V8, read up on the timing chain guides and see how you feel about doing that job. If the car you buy hasn’t had them done (and unless you’re paying top dollar, it probably hasn’t at around ~20 hours of labor at book rate ), then some amount of the guides are probably sitting in the oil pan and should plan on being done. Post 99ish, VANOS seals are another job that’ll need to be done at some point , and will cost much of the cars value to pay someone else to do.

On E39's in general, power window regulators, suspension bushings the cooling system are consumable items. Suspension bushings are replaced via installing entire new aluminium control arms. The cooling system in its entirely should be replaced every 60-80k. The good news is that the entire system, including radiator and expansion tank can be replaced for around $400ish in parts, last time I checked.

An E39 is wonderful thing, and they are supremely good to drive . My former 2000 528i is one of the only cars I’ve owned that I actually miss. At this point, they’re on borrowed time as any one of the common issues that ALL of these cars will have past 100k will cost as much or more than the car is worth. They’re DIYable cars, if you know what you’re doing under the hood and can follow directions explicitly. There is certainly some Bavarian madness, but there is always a method to that madness, even if it isn’t immediately obvious . I found mine refreshingly logical to work on, but I also used to turn wrenches for a living.

Is maintaining an E39 right for you? I’d probably approach that question from the perspective of how you paint the edges of a room and around trim. If you grab the tape and mask it off , an E39 may not be right for you. If you spring for an quality cutting brush and spend the next three hours getting your zen on cutting in by hand and relishing that sharp line that tape can never equal, then working on a E39 might be for you. Not that I’ve been doing a lot of painting or anything around my house recently.

Decay buys too many beaters > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/16/2018 at 18:46

Here is my experience.

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/tag/cheap-e39

interstate366, now In The Industry > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
10/16/2018 at 19:37

That you had to type that much to justify it says the world to me. I’ll stick to my Japanese cars, thanks.

Montalvo > interstate366, now In The Industry
10/16/2018 at 19:47

Allow me to rebut that arguement.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
10/16/2018 at 19:49

I hate painting and I don’t wrench no mo so I agree, definitely not right for me

interstate366, now In The Industry > Montalvo
10/16/2018 at 19:50

nah

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > interstate366, now In The Industry
10/16/2018 at 19:54

They’re wonderful cars, and all the waxing poetic about them is well justified . That said, they’re also very much one of those if you to ask kind of things. An appliance they are not, but most really interesting cars aren’t.

I miss mine, and the only reason I sold it was because the opportunity to by a one owner LT-1/6 speed C4 vette with 55k on it came up. Part of me wishes I had found a way to keep both, as I might still have them. It was a supremely better daily driver than the vette, and some of the long-term issues facing keeping the vette going would’ve been mitigated for a long time putting 5 k a year on it instead of 25k.

Kinja'd!!!

Matt Nichelson > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/16/2018 at 19:56

I had a 2003 M-Sport, same color as the top one, for about a month. In that time I replaced a window regulator, computer, head unit (bad pixels), fixed some trim, and some other things. It still needed more work, but I h it a deer and totalled it a month after buying it. I loved that car.

Don't buy one. You will go broke if you do.

interstate366, now In The Industry > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
10/16/2018 at 19:57

I guess I'll never get it. There are so many things I would rather spend money on than maintenance for that.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > interstate366, now In The Industry
10/16/2018 at 20:07

I can kind of see it. My Paseo doesn’t have that laundry list of non-consumable consumables, but routine maintenance has not been inexpensive (because BRAND), but the “it” factor is a cut above anything I’ve owned. The A6 Allroad 6MT is still one of the most enjoyable cars I’ve ever driven, it’s like those evil Mermaids that lure in sailors and eat them or whatever. I’ve still not driven a Bimmer. A nd I guess I’m glad I haven’t, as it is an aspirational vehicle, and all of my aspirations are currently tied up.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > interstate366, now In The Industry
10/16/2018 at 20:11

If you spend enough time driving one, you’ll get it. Mine was a factory sport package car, so it was little lower and stiffer than standard, but the ride was still reasonable. It was capable of astonishing corner apex speed for car of the that size and wight. The handling manners were just so nice, and the steering feel was just about perfect. Turn in was interesting, it did nothing you didn’t want it to at the limit, and it maintained composer as it passed the handling limit. The brakes were the best factory brakes of any car I’ve driven this side of things with Z06 badges or better on them. The interior was silent, the materials were all nice, the seats supremely comfortable and the ergonomics first rate. Even with just the little engine, it was a capable cruiser. The difference between 80 and 120 was only how fast the scenery went by; the car felt no different. It was a stupendously good long distance road trip car and highway commuter. It just wasn’t cheap.

interstate366, now In The Industry > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo
10/16/2018 at 20:28

Is it really aspirational if you look at it and think it isn’t worth the consequences?

interstate366, now In The Industry > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
10/16/2018 at 20:29

I’ll never think it’s worth the consequences, when my TL is 95% of the car for maybe half the cost of ownership.

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
10/16/2018 at 21:06

To complete your analogy... What if you use neither a cutting brush nor tape and say fuck it to a few mistakes?

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind
10/16/2018 at 21:16

Ha! I’m going to say that also falls into the working on an E39 probably isn’t for you.

HoustonRunner > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
10/16/2018 at 21:19

Great take and couldn’t agree more. My 2000 540 6 speed is still the favorite car I have owned and I loved driving it dearly. But until I have the time to wrench and not use it as my daily (and cash set aside for the few jobs I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing) I won’t get another. That said, I was actually looking at one for $4700 OBO on Craigslist just yesterday....the only car I lust after more is an E39 M5. But I won’t buy that until I win the lottery (or all four of my kids get full scholarships to college, which is basically the same).

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > interstate366, now In The Industry
10/16/2018 at 21:43

That’s a good and accurate way to look at it. The 2003 TL-type S my parents used to have was the same class of car from the same time period, and it was dynamically 90% as good. It was cheaper to bu y and a fraction of the cost to run over the long-term. It wasn’t nearly as quiet, and FWD meant the handling was not as capable or anywhere near as interesting, and the interior, while quite good, also made no attempt to hide the fact the bones came from the accord and a whole bunch of stuff like switch gear came from the Honda parts bin. The trade off was also being perfectly reliable and never needed more than the expected Honda modicum of maintenance over the 110k they had it. In a way, it is a question of what the last 5%, or 10%, or whatever, is worth to you. The cup holders were vastly better in the TL, though.

Similarly, but from an earlier era, my 2nd gen Legend coupe with the type II engine was also a similar class luxury/gt type car. It was also very, very good, and probably 90% dynamically of what the E39 was. Like my folk’s TLS, it was a Honda appliance when it came to maintenance and upkeep.

However, while I’m glad to have owned that car, I don’t miss it. I probably wouldn’t buy another one at this point, and in fact, I sold mine in part because it was coming up on some maintenance investment like struts and the timing belt/cooling system job (it also didn’t great gas mileage for a car I was using purely as a 52 mile/day commuter). It wasn’t a huge cost in parts and a weekend of my time to do it all, but I felt compelled instead to move on to a new automotive experience. The investment in that car didn’t worth it to me. I was ready to move on. I never felt the parts cost and time invested in the E39 wasn’t worthwhile. I would be seriously tempted by the right deal on another E39 in the right situation.

Make no mistake, objectively a used TL type-s is the smart answer over an E39.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > HoustonRunner
10/16/2018 at 21:50

An E39 M5 is probably my attainable dream car at some point, unless prices go completely crazy .

interstate366, now In The Industry > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
10/16/2018 at 21:58

See, it’s odd, because I’ve had the opposite experience from a similar (though different generation) car. I love my TL. Mine is a 2012, so it has the maligned beak, but I like how it looks, and love how it drives. (I also, somewhat infamously, prefer AWD to RWD, and I really like how the SH-AWD makes the car handle). It’s quiet, has a great sound system, and the interior is very comfortable. I’d hate to lose it, and I’ve never said that about a car before.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > interstate366, now In The Industry
10/16/2018 at 22:10

I think that is a good take. The contemporary 5 series to your car was much more of an electronic luxobarge than the E39. The E39 was about the same size and weight as today’s 3 series. I suspect the dynamic difference between an E60 and a SH-AWD TL are a lot closer. Were I cross shopping those cars, I don’t at all know that I would choose an E60 over that generation SH-AWD TL. There is an “it” factor with E39's that I think drives the lust, and I think a lot of it had to do with them being the very best of that class of car at basically the end of that class of car being a largely “analog” driving experience.

I can’t say that I love the beak, but I never really found it objectionable. In the right circumstance, I would own one.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
10/17/2018 at 10:10

Thanks! I dont have time right now to read it properly, I’ll go through it tonight.

interstate366, now In The Industry > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
10/17/2018 at 16:46

I get that. I keep a Prelude around for that 90s mainly-analog-but-still-fairly-safe experience. It’s slower, noisier, less comfortable, and more taxing to drive than the TL, but sometimes I just need that.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
10/17/2018 at 18:18

I read up on the timing chain and the VANOS job. Its certainly DIY-able for me and I will do it. A quick glance at the forums indicated that the guides go out every 100 to 150k miles. I’m fine with doing it once every 100k miles.

The cooling system, suspension components dont bother me much. Its the same for my Mini.

Overall I would certainly like to own one some day (maybe next year). There is nothing out there that is similar to the 540i (except the SS and G8 but they are too expensive).

All this is fine by me if it handles as well as you say it does. I need to find one near me and test drive it....

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I will still have the Mini as a second car, so I’m OK if the BMW isnt working for a while. And if the Mini stops working too then I can always hitch a ride to work, I live pretty close to my workplace.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > interstate366, now In The Industry
10/17/2018 at 18:25

I have driven a 1st gen TL and an E93 so take my opinion with a grain of salt; The TL was a fun commuter car. But at the end of the day it was still a commuter car, there was no feedback from the steering and the ride was floaty. IDK how different the 2nd gen car feels like. The BMW is basically a sports car imo. Sharp handling, well balanced and confidence inspiring.

Again, none of these are the cars in question but I dont think I’ll look at a TL again as my daily.

Also, personally I will never buy a FWD/AWD car again and one that is not a stick.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > jasmits
10/17/2018 at 18:26

Hey hey, Im daily driving a 15 year old Mini so I know about the BMWness of the maintenance :)

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > Matt Nichelson
10/17/2018 at 18:27

*looks at username* Why you still have a E92 then?

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > atfsgeoff
10/17/2018 at 18:27

Meself

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > WiscoProud
10/17/2018 at 18:28

I think the 540 is a bargain compared to the M5

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > Decay buys too many beaters
10/17/2018 at 18:28

Do you still own it?

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
10/17/2018 at 18:28

It’ll pay me back in happiness (when its working )

Decay buys too many beaters > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/17/2018 at 18:35

Nope, sold it last year. Decided to motorcycle daily and haven’t looked back.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > Decay buys too many beaters
10/17/2018 at 18:41

OK. I would like to own a 540 sometime, maybe next year.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/17/2018 at 18:42

Cool. Sounds like an E39 could be a great car for you. Mine was a factory sport package car, so it was a little lower, stiffer and wider rubber. I can’t say if that is a make or break thing, but I can recommend it. I didn’t find it objectionable, but I also like a ride on the stiffer side.

Decay buys too many beaters > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/17/2018 at 18:46

It was the best daily I ever had. Comfy, relatively reliable, cheap to fix when i t wasn’ t, great to drive fast for the weight.

interstate366, now In The Industry > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/17/2018 at 18:49

You know a 1st gen TL is 10 years older than an E93, right?

Kinja'd!!!

My TL fits everything you said about the BMW: sharp handling, confidence inspiring, well-balanced. And I have no interest in RWD, so most BMWs are non-starters to me anyway.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
10/17/2018 at 18:50

I like a stiffer ride as well. I’m in no particular hurry to get a 2nd car, so I could take my time to find the perfect 540. IDK tho, that Viper yesterday was pretty enticing :)

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > Decay buys too many beaters
10/17/2018 at 18:51

The only car(s) that I can compare it to are G8/SS. And both cost at least 4 times as much.

Thats a big plus in my book.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > interstate366, now In The Industry
10/17/2018 at 18:54

Oops, I meant the 3rd gen. For some reason I thought it was the 1st gen, stupid me :)

This is what I drove, to be clear:

Kinja'd!!!

Well, if you say that the 4th gen is a big improvement over the 3rd then I’ll go find one to drive. Were they available with a stick?

interstate366, now In The Industry > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/17/2018 at 18:58

Ah, yeah. Those look good but they’re wildly overrated from a driving standpoint unless all you care about is going straight. It was one of the other cars I considered but the 4th gen AWD just drives so much better.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > interstate366, now In The Industry
10/17/2018 at 18:59

Hmm, I need to find one. Did they offer a stick on them 4th gens?

interstate366, now In The Industry > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/17/2018 at 19:06

Yeah, though they’re very hard to find. They unfortunately didn’t offer it with the package I wanted so I we nt with the auto.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > interstate366, now In The Industry
10/17/2018 at 19:09

Good to know! I’ll find one to test drive but I wont own one. The Mini is has shown me what FWD can do, its time for RWD.

interstate366, now In The Industry > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/17/2018 at 20:19

Yeah, you may or may not like it. The AWD is full time, but is front-biased most of the time. Max is 70% rear, but it has a torque vectoring system that can send that 70% entirely to one wheel. That said, it is quick, especially with the manual. 0-60 is around 5.2-5.3. The 6AT mine has is about half a second slower, which is still pretty good.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > interstate366, now In The Industry
10/17/2018 at 20:25

Nice, that is proper quick for a mid/full sized sedan !

atfsgeoff > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/17/2018 at 20:44

Then proceed sir

Matt Nichelson > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/17/2018 at 21:23

Because I am stupid and fell for the allure of a BMW more than once. I like my car, but I also hate it. I know, it’s weird. I’m tired of waiting on the next thing to go wrong though. I’ve pretty much decided this will be the last BMW I own. I am a big BMW fan , but the build quality and ‘German reliability’ have gone down the drain imo.

WiscoProud > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/18/2018 at 10:02

It really is. They’re typically 50% of the price of a cheap M5.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > WiscoProud
10/18/2018 at 10:09

And they aren’t 50% slower and they certainly aren’t 50% less fun!

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > Matt Nichelson
10/18/2018 at 10:13

Hey I intend on owning a 15 year old , 200k Mini forever, so I’m fairly stupid as well. Might as well go full stupid and get a 540.

jasmits > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
10/18/2018 at 10:49

Fair!! I have heard Minis from this era are worse than BMWs, so it at least probably won’t be any worse than what you’re used to.

I had an E36 318ti and it really was not bad at all from a maintenance standpoint, parts really were not that bad and it was really easy to work on. These are definitely more complex despite being from the same era, but they’re still relatively simple machines.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > jasmits
10/18/2018 at 10:59

Well, my Mini has been a joy to work on: decently cheap parts and DIY friendly. It has been quite reliable as well, no issue other than changing most of the front bushings and tie rods, bearings but then again it was 197k miles on it and I dont exactly baby it.